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Post by shachalnur Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:36 pm

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Post by shachalnur Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:08 pm

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Post by shachalnur Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:31 pm

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Post by shachalnur Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:56 pm

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Post by shachalnur Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:31 pm

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Post by shachalnur Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:34 pm

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Post by shachalnur Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:43 pm

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Post by shachalnur Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:46 am

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Post by shachalnur Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:56 pm

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Post by shachalnur Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:13 pm

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Post by shachalnur not logged in Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:52 pm

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childless Serpent and bloodslurper Yoav Harari,and his husband ,writer and historian give $ 1 million to WHO because USA doesn't want to give money to this chinese organisation of eugenicists..

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Post by KneelB4Zod! Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:05 pm

It's not within current COVID topic but still, I'm interested in your opinion as I consider you, shachalnur, as well informed regarding this. You probably missed my question while ago so I will just paste it here:

KneelB4Zod! wrote:Btw, what's your opinon on this, shachalnur (or others interested in the topic)?

A few days ago we have quite interesting debate on Twitter related to Judaism, zionism etc. Some interesting claims from anti-zionist participants were maid:


Zippy 🌹 🇵🇸
@YourFriendZippy
·
Dec 20
Judaism was first practised by Arabs in Mesopotamia  in the Abbasid Calipahte from 8th century AD and the Rabbinic and Karaite Jews crystallised in the 10th C. through efforts by Saadya Gaon.


or

Cigarro Cubano
@cubanomaduro
·
Dec 20
I have no issues with Torah Jews and their beliefs, each is entitled to their own beliefs, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Judaism (partly) adopted Hebrew texts/prophets, and adopted the people as their own. That doesn't make Judeans into Jews though.


We even reached 1st/2nd century and Simeon Bar Kokhba. By Torah Jews his uprising is usually described as another example of oaths transgression:

"In the year 130 CE, Simeon Bar Kochba led a Jewish revolt against Rome and established a Jewish kingdom. This is another one of the cases listed by the Midrash when the oaths were transgressed. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 93b) says that when the Jewish Sages of that time realized that Bar Kochba was not the messiah, they killed him, putting a stop to his revolt."

He was seen as messiah and, thus, he tired to re-establish the kingdom. Rabbi Akiva gave him name "Bar Kokhba" - Son of Star.

The opinion of the participant was:

Cigarro Cubano
@cubanomaduro
·
Dec 20
It was a Judean revolt, not "Jewish". "Judean" is a geographical reference, whose inhabitants in Jesus' time were all black people, including Judahites, Benjaminites, Levites, Edomites and other Hebrews. 1/2

Cigarro Cubano
@cubanomaduro
·
Dec 20
Those amongst them who were faithful to Hebrew prophets, were also faithful to Jesus. hence not Jews. The remainder (including 'pharisees') were polytheists, ergo not Jews either. 2/2


What's your take on this?

I always considered Judaism as one of the earliest, if not the earliest, monotheist religions. There were some interesting arguments rised, outside of my knowledge. Even if I'm not lazy to learn informations about such not widely known personas as Bar Kokhba I can't make my mind over this. What's your take, my friend?

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Post by 刘汉 Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:38 am

KneelB4Zod! wrote: what's your opinon on this, shachalnur (or others interested in the topic)?

A few days ago we have quite interesting debate on Twitter related to Judaism, zionism etc. Some interesting claims from anti-zionist participants were maid: [....] I always considered Judaism as one of the earliest, if not the earliest, monotheist religions. There were some interesting arguments rised, outside of my knowledge.

The first monotheism afaik was preached under Amenhotep IV > Akhenaten about 1400 BC.
Judaism evolved and changed over the millenia, this seems to be clear.
Yes, during the Abbasid dynasty there flourished the schools of Pumbadita and Sura in Mesopotamia, but even they are older and go back to about 200 AD.
If you want to make a difference between the Hebrew texts and the Jews, even this is not old enough. The Hebrew texts were finished in Mesopotamia under the Chaldaean or Neo-Babylonian dynasty (625 - 535 BC). There is a possibility, that the Hebrew texts were taken over by different people, but not afterwards. Under the Persian Akhaimenid dynasty these Jews got permission from the Shah-in-Shah to create a Jewish state in the place, were Israel is now. But it is not clear under which Shah-in-Shah or in what century. It could be the 5th or the 4th century BC. The texts about this "return" are not written in Hebrew, they are written in Aramaic: the books of Esra and Nehemia. At this time these Jews were clearly monotheistic, because the Greeks and Romans wrote about this problem. There were immediately fights between different groups (Maccabaeans etc.). One group even fled to Egypt and got permission by the Ptolemees to build a temple. There were differences in the Hebrew texts, one was brought from Mesopotamia and another one was the Samaritanian one. If they would not have been monotheistic, Christianity would also not be monotheistic.
But in the Hebrew texts there are clear indications about polytheistic beliefs. Under king Hiskia of Juda (ca. 750 - 700 BC) there were monotheistic reforms. This is the same time, when in Egypt under the 25th dynasty (ca. 750 - 650 BC) the god Amun was worshipped exclusively. So there was a general trend to monotheism. But this was reversed in the late 7th century again in Egypt and Juda.

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Post by shachalnur Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:43 am

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Post by shachalnur Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:15 am

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Post by shachalnur Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:55 pm

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Post by KneelB4Zod! Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:55 am

Thank you for your input regarding my question. I see it similary, even without your more detalied knowing.

At firs I ant to conclude my dispute with Zippy and Cubano. We came to same end as we, after all, agreed that find origins of Judaism and when it started is not easy at all and is affected by personal believes. What was important was that we came, regardless the path we took, to the same conslusion - zionism is abomination and direct opposition of Judaism.

Your description of the current state of Judaism is quite well. It seems to be absorbed by the zionist entity. However, people as rabbi Shapiro hold the flag.
Righ now I'm too lazy to look for the correct names but your description of current Judaism state reminds me old story of just a few dfenders of Judaism facing the betrial of the most. It's probably quite known story but I can't put in details atm...

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"This is not a new world, it is simply an extension of what began in the old one. It has patterned itself after every dictator who has ever planted the ripping imprint of a boot on the pages of history since the beginning of time. It has refinements, technological advances, and a more sophisticated approach to the destruction of human freedom. But like every one of the super-states that preceded it, it has one iron rule: logic is an enemy and truth is a menace." - "The Obsolete Man" - The Twilight Zone, 1961

"I assure you, ladies and gentlemen that, very soon history will show that we and our allies have fought a war on behalf of the whole world against terrorism supported by governments that will be held accountable by its own people..."
Quoting Dostoyevsky:
"Rest assured, hell is big enough for all. It doesn't deserve this fierce competition over who will be the worst." - Dr. Bashar Jaafari, UNSC session, 22nd of February, 2018
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Post by 刘汉 Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:20 am

KneelB4Zod! wrote:Thank you for your input regarding my question. I see it similary, even without your more detalied knowing.

At firs I ant to conclude my dispute with Zippy and Cubano. We came to same end as we, after all, agreed that find origins of Judaism and when it started is not easy at all and is affected by personal believes. What was important was that we came, regardless the path we took, to the same conslusion - zionism is abomination and direct opposition of Judaism.

Your description of the current state of Judaism is quite well. It seems to be absorbed by the zionist entity. However, people as rabbi Shapiro hold the flag.
Righ now I'm too lazy to look for the correct names but your description of current Judaism state reminds me old story of just a few dfenders of Judaism facing the betrial of the most. It's probably quite known story but I can't put in details atm...

What I have written is just, where I agree with mainstream textbook knowledge, not where I disagree. Being an Ancient Historian and Egyptologist, this is my area of expertise and I can check all the sources myself and I am fully aware, that there are agendas involved.
Just to tell you this: Even the Israeli archaeologists Finkelstein and Silberman 2001: The bible unearthed had to admit, that they could not find any proof in the earth in modern-day Israel for the events told in the Hebrew texts. This was a serious hit for the Zionist agenda. So they concluded, everything was just a little bit smaller than told in the texts, just because they could not find anything. But this is not the whole truth. Starting before WWI and excavating till WWII a German group of archaeologists were working in the North Syrian and Southern Turkish region in a place called Samal. There they found a small state called in the inscriptions "Jahudia" and alle the royal names agreed with the Hebrew texts and Assyrian sources. This was common knowledge among German Ancient Historians these days. But after WWII the excavation permit was taken away from the Germans and given to the University of Chicago. The result is clear. No one is talking about a state "Jahudia" in this region anymore, because anything that could possible undermine the Zionist claim is considered "Anti-Semitism". So the Hebrew texts must describe the region of the Zionist entity of "Israel".
The other thing is chronology. According to the current textbook chronology a creation of Judaism under the Abbasid dynasty is impossible, it must be under the Neo-Babylonian dynasty at the latest, but... This chronology depends on the Greek chronology. And personally doubt the Greek chronology. When they translated the Hebrew texts into Greek (the so called Septuaginta) the extended the chronology for the creation of the world. This is common knowledge. But I am convinced, that they extended the chronology in the 13th century again by pushing back in time the great classical era of Greece at about 1000 years. By doing so they doubled the Persian dynasty (Akhaimenids and Sassanids). By doing this calculation I did not think about the Jews, but this could solve the problem with the Abbasid dynasty. But this is just my personal crazy idea.

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Post by 刘汉 Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:28 am

The topic is very complex. So I would like to add one more point. The Abbasid dynasty is a problem also from a different perspective. From the Akhaimenid over the Seleukid, Parthian, Sassanid and Umayyad dynasties Aramaic was the language, that was used as lingua franca in the Middle East. But under the Abbasid dynasty Arabic was officially pushed as the new language for the Middle East. This means, that at this time as the latest the Quran was finished. There are many theories, how the Quran came into being, but this is the latest possible time. Muslims of course would disagree and put it even before the Umayyad dynasty. And in the Quran all the stories told in the Hebrew texts are told also, especially the Exodos story. This means, that the Tora must be older. But the version told in the Quran is very strange and is only similiar to the version told by the Mandaeans in Southern Iraq. The big difference is, that the story of Moses/Musa is connected with the story of Jesus/Isa. The connection is the sister of Moses and the mother of Jesus: Mary/Maryam. And the location is different, not so much in the Quran, more in the stories of the Mandaeans: The people of Israel is not leaving from Egypt, but from a place in Mesopotamia, either the Kurdish mountains or a place south of Babylon, called Misr/Mizraim and they are migrating south to the yam al suf (the Sea of Reeds), that is clearly localized in the marshes of Southern Iraq. During the migration there is a split in the group, one is following Isa and one is following Musa.
So if you reserve the term "Judaism" for the post-Abbasid times, how would you call the prae-Abbasid times? That there are differences and changes are clear, but it is just a name.
I think, that (at least) one group migrated from Mesopotamia/Babylonia to the place where the modern entity of Israel is. They called it a "return", but the Hebrew texts can be localized in different areas. One group went to Adiabene (Northern Syria) and another group went to Yemen. The group in "Israel" localized "Mizraim" in Egypt. That is, why the Greeks translated it in the Septuaginta with Aigyptos. But actually, mizr or mizraim just means "fortress at the border" and it can be anywhere (There are many different "mizrs" even in early Arabic language). The interpretation "Egypt" just served their agenda as it is still serving the Zionist agenda.

Sorry for writing so long, I am very interested in this topic and you have to consider many different perspectives to understand the problem, you have raised.

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Post by shachalnur Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:56 pm

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Post by shachalnur Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:38 pm

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Post by shachalnur Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:58 pm

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Post by shachalnur Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:20 am

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Post by shachalnur Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:39 pm

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